Open Forum Discussions and Debate

Thank you Gath for making this page available. Please use it wisely with informed discussion and debate on subjects that are of interest to you. Heed the rules of the entire site however, by refraining from personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and we should respect that right.
Put up a topic, discuss it with passion but refrain from abusing each other, or I will ask for this page to be removed again.
Cheers

Rosemary: You beat Ian to it. Good on ya! Now I'm going to sit quietly in the corner and wait for the first chuckle headed statement to show it's self and be ready to pounce on it with alacrity. If no chuckle headed statements show up, I'll talk philosophy to the cat 'till it bites its tail.

Rosemary: You need some flashing neon lights and loud music for this place. It's been a whole day now. The cat is bobtailed and I'm almost out of beer and snoose.

rotfl Jeb, poor cat you have talked his rear off!

snoose? is that legal jeb?

Headlines in the English Newspapers!! (This is true by the way)..
The story of the Three Little Pigs has been a children's favourite for more that 150 years. But now their battle with the Big Bad Wolf has become a victim of political correctness. A junior school's muscical production of the story has been renamed the Three Little Puppies for fear of offending Muslims. Yesterday Islamic leaders condemned the move as misguided and said such decisions were turning Muslims into 'misfits' in society. Local leaders and MP's are in uproar and say 'It is pandering to a few extremists' Today the decision has been overruled and the musical will continue as 'The Three Little Pigs'
So what are your views? How far should political correctness go?

Being 'pc' has definitely gone too far. A story is sometimes meant to be just a story and to change it would imply that it was meant to insult to begin with. If we just leave things alone and not get offended by every little thing, then perhaps there would be more peace in the world.

I am with you Stella, to change the name would imply that it was meant to insult in the first place. That couldnt be further from the truth.
PC has gone way to far and common sense should prevail. Respect and tolerance shown for everyone is all that is required.

Outstanding! An issue. And where is Ian and Greg in all this?
Walking on eggshells around everybody else's perceived sensibilities has created more problems for society where none had existed. Was PCness a political maneuver foisted on the rest of the world by the far left with the intention of dirupting society? PC is certainly a hot button that attracts the bottom feeding media. 99.9% of the PC problems would more than likely disappear if they were ignored. I always enjoyed John Leo's commentaries in U.S. News and World Report describing the rediculous extreems PC took on college campuses and elsewhere. A good example can be found at: www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/051121/21john.htm. It is the victims who have to be protected from the thoughtlesness of everybody around them. The problem is in identifying what a victim looks like. The safest way to make it through life now is to show no emotion or say anything when in public. Victims lurk around every corner. It is impossible to know what they might find offensive, so do nothing. Of course that might not work because then I would feel like a prisoner in my own little piece of the world and I would find that offensive.

Excellent article jeb, more political correctness - Birmingham City Council renaming Christmas 'Winterval' caused an uproar and was hastily changed back to Christmas. Google Birmingham Winterval for the debate! Again objected to by many different religions all of whom felt it was a step back in the progress on tolerance of all faiths.

What is there in the story of Three Little Pigs to offend any one? Pigs exist, Jews as well as Muslims don't eat pork. Have schools banned stories about cows so as not to offend Hindus. Will they ban all animal stories so as not to offend vegetarians. My grand daughters are Muslims and I have read them that story.
The way to encourage misunderstanding and intolerance is to emphasise differences. Children should be brought up to accept all colours, nationalities, religions, customs different to their own. If the norm is to accept people just as people and not classify them as U or non U, maybe our youngsters will live in a more peaceful world.

Well thank God the Islamic leaders voiced their opinion on the stupidity of such a move.Your example jeb just about says it all... has common sense become a redundant term?

The question is not only about whether we’ve gone too far in political correctness, but also about what triggers the terrified reaction that we might be called racist. For example, this “joke” was posted a few days ago:

An Irishman decides to start a chicken farm so he goes out and buys a hundred chickens.

A month later he returns to the dealer for another hundred chickens because all of the first lot had died.

A month later he was back at the dealer asking for another hundred chickens as the second
lot had also died.

'But I think I've figured out what I'm doing wrong,' said the Irishman, 'I think I'm planting them too deep.'


Now let’s modify it....

An African-American decides to start a chicken farm so he goes out and buys a hundred chickens.

A month later he returns to the dealer for another hundred chickens because all of the first lot had died.

A month later he was back at the dealer asking for another hundred chickens as the second
lot had also died.

'But I think I've figured out what I'm doing wrong,' said the African-American, 'I think I'm planting them too deep.'


If the second version is objectionable, why isn’t the first? Why is it perfectly all right to tell cute little jokes about one group and not another? Why is it perfectly all right to mock and attack Catholicism but not Judaism (unless you're a Jewish stand-up comedian, the most vitriolic anti-Semite on the planet)?

Jeb, you got me. I’ll have more to say later this evening on the subject...maybe.

A couple of my occasional companions are among the earliest members of the Black Panthers. Both are still politically active radicals, and good friends. And both are Protestant ministers, one Lutheran and one Episcopal. Yes, they are unusual people.

One evening, the day before St. Patrick's Day, one came up to me and asked if I was looking forward to my corned beef and cabbage the next day. I turned to him (with dramatic slowness, kinda Robert Mitchum-like), and said, 'Vernon, how would you like it if I walked up to you the day before Martin Luther King Day, and asked if you were looking forward to your fried chicken and watermelon?'

'It's not the same thing!' He was shocked and embarrassed.

'The hell it's not,' I replied.

We spent the next three hours and four drinks arguing about whether it was or was not the same thing, and at the end, we agreed that it was...and it wasn't.

And a final note, for the moment, on the subject (unless provoked)...


''Paddy'' has been recognized as a derogatory term, very similar to''Rastus.'' If you're paying attention, you'll notice that the major media outlets are no longer using it. Yes, like Rastus, Paddy is a legitimate name, but it's also hate code, sneering and contemptuous.

The same applies to ''Begorrah.'' It's what's called 'stage Irish,' a vaudeville word, meant to entertain the very people who were so virulently anti-Irish in the 19th and early 20th Century in the US. And using it today is pretty much the equivalent of saying, ''Yowsa boss, have a nice Martin Luther King Day.'' Can you imagine anyone saying that?

And if someone reports this post as abusive, and it is removed, then we know that there are truly racist people on this site...and running it. They've just chosen safe targets for their viciousness.

My apologies to my Aussie friends who may not have any idea of what I'm talking about, if this is a particularly American phenomenon. But I gotta admit, I was taken aback by the ''joke'' about the Aboriginal and the blow job post that was made in comments a few weeks ago. Nice family site...

Common sense isn't very common any more! We have been too quick to put everyone in a different box so that we can tell at a quick glance whch is which, and we can choose topics that won't offend. People often don't take the time to learn about other people and their customs and simply rely on what is told to them. Common sense isn't very common any longer. People are so caught up in moving through life at such a fast pace that many don't take the time to get to know others as living, human beings who started out with the same hopes, dreams and problems no matter where they started life, and no matter what they have or have not gained in life.. Tolerance is to be sneered at....we are taught that its every man for him/herself, that the only way to move forward is by besting others. No one accepts responsibility for their actions, but seek others to place blame. My motto, which has hel

Ian - I was puzzled as to why you questioned my use of 'paddy' - I have used it for as long as i can remember and even have a friend who I call 'paddy' - granted he has been called that for the past 35 yrs! What you have just posted was a real eye-opener and am wondering if it does indeed apply to us in Perth - we call Italians 'wogs' here, hell there was even a movie called 'Wog Boy'. We have had this debate before and 'name calling' depended on the intent behind it.

Well, my post certainly got messed up, but it gave me a chance to read Ian's comment. I just learned something that I didn't know and I'm guilty of using a term that following Ian's example, is considered a racist term, to him. It may well be that he is right, and if so, then I am truly sorry for using it and will refrain from now on. The term is 'begorrah'. I would love to have a friendly discussion, and see if others felt this is a racist term or just one that one person finds disagreeable. A word that may fit into this catagory is the use of the 'n' word. Ian, I have butted heads with you before and you appeared to be bitter towards me. If you are willing to discuss this further, and are not still angry...let's give it a try. I find that you have many interesting ideas that we could possibly explore. I have respect for you and hope you feel respectful towards me.

Mamacita -'No one accepts responsibility for their actions, but seek others to place blame.' is so prevalent now and I don't know the answer!
I have always believed that those who place blame generally do not take responsibility for their own actions. Of course there are exceptions, but finger pointing does not solve an awful lot...

Billy: Wog is an interesting term, linguistically. Some sources say that it was an abbreviation for ''Worthy Oriental Gentleman,'' when the British Army was told to be more sensitive to their middle-Eastern colonials and to stop using far mastier terminology. But like a lot of words of obscure origin, one opinion is as good as another. I experienced the same thing in Vietnam, where we were told, in no uncertain terms, that using the word ''gook'' was a punishable offense. ''Dink,'' referring to the enemy, was perfectly all right....go figure.

Times change....

''Now, it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles, and he weareth the Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, with the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: ‘A fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.’

::::Rudyard, of course.

typo...

''stop using far nastier terminology.'

Billy, I certainly agree with you. We do need to look in the mirror more often, and to remember that when we point our finger, our thumb is pointing back at us.

Brilliant! I think the word that is being searched for is 'pejorative'. I've called my good friend a horses ass upon occasion and he has used terms of equally derogatory fame to describe me. The point here is context. By reaching out beyond the limits of familiarity, innocent bystanders can and will be harmed. The harm is in the form of disrespect or dismissal. For example, I don't know any of you well enough to become overly familiar, but I respect your dignity and humanity. I think that is all that anyone expects and those that go overboard with all this PC crap just don't get it.

And Rosemary, this is working great (so far). Paricles would be proud.

Pericles

Jeb
Great day, great discussion. I agree so far so good.

My Aussie niece teaching in London tells me it's quite acceptable to refer to children as being black. We wouldn't dare do that here. Why is it considered derogatory to identify someone by the colour of their skin? I work with a lot of indigenous youth who refer to their peers as whitefellas and blackfellas. I've even read those terms being used by Aboriginal leaders. But apparently that's OK.

Identifying people by the color of their skin: We identify people by the color of their eyes, ie old blue eyes as in Sinatra. No disrespect there or he'd have my knee caps busted. By their alma mater, by the clothes they wear, by the color of their hair, the country of their origin, the list goes on. Where skin color becomes a sensative subject is in the history of descrimination. It goes back to slavery, genocidal policies of various governments and societal descrimiatory practices. I remember well in my home town, back in the 40's and 50's, there were two seperate swimming pools, a 'them' only seating area at the movie theater and the list goes on. And don't forget Buchenwald. Society has a long memory for such injustices and the assumed guilt is still with us. What is done is done, but the fear of repetition is the elephant behind the sofa.

Jeb/ks, You are so right on in your response to Susan regarding skin color. Often when discriptions such as black fellas are made, there are so many other discriptive words that would serve the same purpose that it appears the term has to be used in a derogatory manner, since those same people often don't refer to their own as white fellas. When people of the same race use such terms about themselves, they think they are removing the sting of the words, thus rendering then as harmless. Its usually understood by the perception of intent, that we spoke of before, that the words become harmless or harmful. Another view of the term black has been seen in a negative manner due to its association with evil/bad,i.e. the good guys always wore white, and black was worn by those seen as the bad guys. When the terminology in American changed for people of color, it went from Colored, to Negro to Black(trying to instill pride and to remove the sting of the other words) to African-Americans, yet today, you find that all of the above may be used when someone describes him/her self. Since there are so many different shades of people, black is also not seen as a true discription.An African-American can describe a white person born in Africa, and then becomes a citizen of America. Black seems to have fallen out of favor to some degree, and if you say person of color, you can be one of many different races. Many are confused about what to call themselves...again many of these problems stem from the early slave holding days when people were not also seen as humans, but described in terms of property. i.e, my red blouse rather than my blue blouse. Man has created a quite a quandary hasn't he!

Mamacita: I have found that identifying folks by a singular characteristic has taken out a lot of the stress associated with pigmentation differences. I discovered that calling different people things like Bob or Fred or even Mary, if appropriate, works great. And if you are not sure which word to use for an individual, asking what they like to be called makes thing so much easier. The only problem with this is when you are pointing out someone at an airport concorse to your wife. All that is available for a description in a setting such as that is something like; look at that idiot spending $4.00 for a cup of coffee. Regardless of race, that person has most assuredly been identified as to what they truely are.
-DISCLAIMER- If anyone reading this regularly pays $4.00 for a cup of coffee, you have to understand that I am used to paying 70 cents a cup. That should explain why I feel the way I do about overinflated coffee prices and the people willing to submit themselves to the ravages of corporate greed.

Thanks jeb and Mamacita 2. If I could give a quick example of what I mean...? Let's say as a teacher you are doing a lesson on graphing, and because your term's unit theme is colour, you could graph the number of kids with each eye or hair colour, but not skin colour, in Australia. However it would be quite acceptable in London. Is that a case of pc going too far here? I certainly understand about segregation and racist views and actions, something I would never condone.

Susan:
In OZ, I perceive that you have a really touchy subject on your hands based on a personal experience. My ship made a port of call in Sidney back in the late 60's. My buddies (mates) and I were invited into a club for beer and darts and had a wonderful time. Someone asked about our lineage and I volunteerd that my paternal side had a Welch influence. The atmosphere got very thick for a moment but cleared right up and became quite jolly when I said my mother's side was of Scottish descent. I took that as a general statement regarding pride in one's heretage as an Aussie characteristic. So my suggestion to you might be fraught with land mines. Instead of pointing out and graphing racial types, perhaps the students would have fun finding out more about their ancesters and graphing that. Where a person's ancesters come from is a lot more interesting anyway and certainly cannot be construed as racial bias. Nationality bias can be deflected into rugby and cricket rivalries. Nothing PC about that is there?

OK, thread finished, evidently.

How about Iraq, gay marriage, immigration policy, religion in schools?

More...

and more...


and even more...





[Anything to get past...

ROFL,
TeeHee,
Happy Birthday,
''Oh you're so naughty,''

...and all the incredibly puerile jokes about Alzheimer's, and flatulence, impotence, and other bodily functions, which seem to be the specialty of this site...]

There are bright and thoughtful people here, with wonderful perspectives that the rest of us should hear. I wish they'd speak up.

The saddest news i'm reading/listening to is the state that Zimbabwe's in. Whether to leave it to the African nations to exert their influence on Mugabe or for international intervention, which looks unlikely due to the lack of incentive, namely oil...Australia's dilemma is whether or not to send our cricket team over later on in the year....

Ian: I am still waiting for 'chuckle headed' to show up, but in the meantime, the cat was delighted to see Andre (little dammit over the e) throw in a diversionary subject worthy of some sound discussion. Points of view flourished and a minor resource for research has been offered. Billy has added well to the mix with a question concerning international relations and a hypothesis on how they are influenced vis a vis man's inhumanity to man vs. world economics. Gay rights, immegration & ect. are all political hot buttons that have been bandied about for years by every talking head CNN and MSNBC can drag in off the street. Gay rights is a devisive issue in which the two opposing sides will more than likely never come together much like the abortion issue. Immigration is a subject that burdens both the US and OZ and for that matter, NZ. Those land masses and their inhabitants were all subjugated by Western conquest. Immigration is a fact of living on this earth. Either accept it or set up housekeeping on an iceberg.

Billy: Outstanding discussion point but I'll leave it to those diplomatic mavens more in step with current international affairs. There is no informed opinion here.

Any opinions on the latest news (here anyway) that the Portuguese mapped out Australia 250 years before Captain Cook? If you haven't seen the article it appeared on line at news.telegraph.co.uk

Ian – I feel I have to take you to task on the subject between the parenthesis!!! People come to this site for their own personal reasons, whether it is through boredom, loneliness, for a bit of a laugh – even to do the puzzle. I understand what you’re saying – but it is your opinion. If people wish other people happy birthday, good luck, condolences, etc., I don’t feel it is for us to judge whether it is paying lip service or being truly concerned with their welfare. Generally it is well intended. This site was founded on jokes of the potty humour type and puerility - I don’t think it will change, I hope it doesn’t. I know from my perspective that I am drawn to this site so that I can behave the ‘idiot’, hopefully without censure. This, in turn, has somehow connected me with ‘like-minded’ people – not idiots, but with people with a great sense of fun and humour! Even more strangely it has brought me face to face with some of them and I feel privileged to have met so many wonderfully warm and generous people. Thankfully Gath (through Rosemary) has provided for us a forum where we can discuss issues of a more serious nature if we choose – but it will not be for everyone. Yes, there are many bright and thoughtful people that frequent this site, but who may use it specifically to ‘let down their hair”, chill and perhaps crack a smile if they read a joke. They may eventually speak up if the need arises, but perhaps they may not come to visit for that reason? Who knows? This site has now been going for about 2 years and there are names that I have not seen post for such a long time - I would hate to think they have left due to personal attacks or comments that have been so distasteful that they have felt that this site is no longer a welcoming place. I have not written this to cause rancour between us as I do value your opinion. I am not at all sure if any of what I have said is offensive to you – it was not intended to be, but I am mindful that words have a habit of being misconstrued no matter how they are written. This would have been better said over a couple of hot choccies and lemon meringue pie - my treat.

Jeb - I'm quite exhausted after my last post ...but i have enough strength in me to say that a few years back I worked with some black zimbabweans, a term they used, and things were getting bad for them then. These were people who were well educated, had known a good standard of living that they had worked incredibly hard for and who felt helpless as they watched their beloved country disintegrate. What was so poignant was that their gifts for loved ones at home were packets of lead pencils - they were a luxury item. They could not comprehend the amount of food that was at our disposal either. I could go on but I won't as I know this situation is not only endemic to Zimbabwe.

Billy: How many times in our lifetime alone, have we seen nations taken over by ruthless rulers bent on their own personal aggrandizement? The populations suffer immensly and the world does nothing. A teacher from years past told his students that the poor would always be among us. There are other catagories of people that should have been included in that lesson. With that thought in mind another question beckons; What can the world do about such people?

Suspect we can do very little but watch from a distance. We surely won't invade like in Iraq (and no, I do not think THAT was one of the US/Australian/British decisions). As Billy says, little is likely to happen since oil supplies aren't threatened.