Open Forum Discussions and Debate

Ian:
Having just gone through the 'elderly/resthome' thicket and observing the process close at hand, I think that this will be with us for a long time. The resthome has become the ice pack, only much more comfortable. Living wills make decision making on the part of family much easier. Hospice is an alternative to resthomes and I think a move up in the evolution of care for the aging or teminally ill.

Spinning off the last thread just a bit...

The next great step in constructing a more responsible society will be universal national service. The length of time will depend on the danger and isolation, and interference with career. At 18, every citizen--no exception--will be required to perform a period of subsistence wage service duty.

Two years military, three years Peace Corps/Vista, four years part-time (if the newly-minted adult wants to stay home and continue work or school uninterrupted).

The ones who stay home will have tasks like meals-on-wheels, Big Brother/Sister, errands fetching groceries for those elderly who can still live on their own, that sort of thing.

And nobody gets out of it. Not the wealthy, not the retarded, crippled, or even criminal. We'll find something for everyone to do, and every citizen will simply have to get the message that they have to contribute something to the society which has given them so much.

Bet it happens in the next generation, say, within 25 years.

Ian,
I guess I'm being a rabble-rouser. I believe that there are people out there who will take advantage of the type of program you envision. Take the following 2 scenarios:

1. A young person who has grown up dirt poor, does meals-on-wheels. They happen to deliver in a wealthy neighborhood. Who's to say that they won't come back at a future date & either rob or burglerize the homes that they may have 'cased?'

2. An eighteen-year-old has an extensive criminal background. Would you want this person to be a Big Brother/Sister?

Now, I'm not saying that this will happen, but it could.

Is anyone who is poor, with a criminal background, etc. going to be forced into the military or the Peace Corps/Vista because they might not be trusted with other tasks?

I think it's a nice vision, but it will not work. There are too many people of all ages who believe that they are owed something by society and will just flat refuse. Will we put them in jail and for how long?

But, in the infinite wisdom of our government, it just might happen. As time goes on, the average citizen has sat back and allowed our rights, and responsibilites, taken away.

In the first case, the fact is that a predator could do that right now; presumably, the normal precautions would go into place. Background checks, bonding, and the usual penalties for criminal conduct that exist now. In fact, such a program might make it easier to identify suspects.

Someone with a questionable ethical compass could lick up litter in Central Park for four years, or build trails in Rocky Mountain National Park for three years, or mow the lawns of the disabled for four years (without ever entering a home).

Those who refuse could pay a higher tax for the rest of their lives (scaled to inflict real financial pain even on the wealthiest), be denied all kinds of societal benefits (driver's license?)...the mechanisms are there. And don't forget, those who refused the draft either went to jail or left the country. The exact same could be reinstated.

Getting back to the evolution of society, though, in a generation, evading that time of service would put the dodger on a social level somewhere between a thief and a child molester.

It will be very interesting to see if Charlie Rangell's bring-back-the-draft campaign, now regarded as a facetious political statement, gains any traction. Don't forget where women's sufferage was at the turn of the last century.

Oh, I can't resist...there were riots in the streets over Social Security. The Roosevelt-era equivalent of rednecks thought is was a ''Red Plot.''

Ian and BJ:
A noble idea. Israel practices this up to a point requiring military service from its citizens. Making this a universal law of the land may sound noble but putting it into practice will see it fail. BJ makes some excellent points. When ingenious plans like this start to take form, I am always reminded of Asimov's Foundation and Empire. Things get going really great and then the Mule shows up. I've always thought of the Mule as an alagory, rather than an empire builder, representing what Burns said so well: 'The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley'.

Ian,

Funny that you mention Social Security. Before Social Security, families took care of their elderly. Don't say that it couldn't be done now. I have a couple of friends whose grandparent lived with the family until they died. One already has their mother living with them. Because some adults do not want to take care of their own, they get 'tossed' into a nursing home. The nursing home takes the Social Security check, Medicare and Medicaid payments. How convenient for their children. No money out of their pockets.

We would have to build more jails, due to the fact that our jails are already overcrowded. I guess taxes would have to double so that we can build and man all the new jails.

As my previous post stated, we have allowed the government to take away rights without a peep. What you are proposing is that the government will dictate what we can and will do. Somewhere along the way, there will be a revolt. It has happened in the past (The Boston Tea Party).

Man may try to rise above their base instincts, but I guess I'm a pessimist. I watch the news and see a guy beat up 2 old ladies then ride away on a pink bicycle. Gee, where could he have gotten that? In the name of religion, people kill, maim and torture innocents. Then there's greed. Golden parachutes for CEO's who do nothing, but get huge rewards for leaving a company that is failing. Let's face it, man will live with strife as long has he exists.

There are good people out there, but sometimes I fear that we are outnumbered.

Everything you say is absolutely right, like AP's comments about war and terrorism and bombing. But at the same time, we regard those things as terrible, and do what we can to stop them. Five centuries ago, it would simply be regarded as business as usual, and even commendable conquest for empire. Yes, people kill in the name of religion. But again, five centuries ago, everybody did it. Now a lot of us (especially those with nuclear weapons,) think those people are nuts. And a pretty large percentage of the earth's population live in societies where mutual respect for religious differences is maintained, at least by the law, if not within the human heart. That's what I mean by the evolution of the human condition.

I agree that our own government is probably the greatest threat to our own individual liberties, identity and fulfillment. But I have no problem reconciling that with Required National Service. We have accidently created a new aristocracy of wealth, and it needs to be curtailed. I think universal national service would go a long way toward changing the attitudes of those who feel they are the elite and privileged and don't have to give anything back.

The question is not whether a proposal has problems; every proposal does. But can we reasonably expect the resulting situation to be an improvement, and is the pain of transition worth it?

Ian,

Would this be an improvement? Yes. It would probably make people more sensitive to the needs of others. But, the only ones who would suffer the pains of transition would be the average joe.

You have brought up the wealthy would be held in the same regard as everyone else. This has never happened and never will. Back in ancient times the wealthy hired mercenaries to go into battle rather than sacrificing their own. During the Civil War, if you had enough money you could pay someone else to take your place when you were drafted. This ended during WWII. These men either went and fought, trained as medics or tried to get Conscientous Objector status. It wasn't until the war in Vietnam that some of the draftees left the country. But, during these last two wars, not many of the elite went. They had daddy to line the pockets of a politician. Who's to say that this won't happen again? Let's face it, who has the gold makes the rules. They will figure a way around so as to stay elite.

Like I said, I guess I'm a pessimist. I understand human nature and sometimes it's not pretty.

clap,clap,clap..fantastic points and views..enjoyed it all..yes 'who has the gold makes the rule',i concur with BJ,one hundred percent..thats the bottom line..loud and clear..time and again its been proved,everywhere right from our own backyard ..

'ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.' ??? could this be a segue to discuss socialism/communism/stalinism/maotism/capitalism and any other ism?

I'm enjoying reading your thoughts...

Some ism's do need closer examination. There's not enough glibism in the world. The Gliberists and the glibologists have taken control and these glibademics are all in a turf war to protect their theses. Peer review has taken a back seat to outright street brawls to prove one side or the other is ultimately all right or all wrong.

But glibertarianism isn't dead. It's just waiting for the primaries.

Very interesting reading. Wish I had more time to spend here, but perhaps I'll be able to, if not join in, at least stay tuned to the topics and expressed views of others until I am freed up enough to join in where I can. Please keep up the great job of exchanging views and placing food for thought on these pages.Well done!

There is a natural for this site in today's news...David Hicks, an Australian, was just sentenced to nine months in jail (after being held for five years) at a war-crimes trial held by a US military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay. Evidently, he is a young adventurer who tried to get into the Australian Army but was rejected because of insufficient education.

He then went to Afghanistan, where he aided Al-Qaida operations. For more information, all you have to do is Google ''David Hicks.''

Ian - Hicks is a hot topic here in Oz, one that has been heavily politicised too. People are divided generally into 2 camps, those that believe he is a terrorist and got his just rewards even if he was detained in Guantanamo Bay without trial, and those that believe he should never have been detained at all without trial, no matter what his 'crime' was. Howard has been under fire for not doing anything sooner - but he is up for re-election next year...and so stepped up the ante. Once Hicks gets back here, there are those who believe he should be locked up for good due to his terrorist activities, and those who believe that he was a misguided youth, who should serve a sentence and be done with it and be allowed to live a 'normal' life...it'll be a media frenzy when he steps foot back in Oz, no doubt he'll have a publishing deal for his life story and he'll be a celebrity whether he wants it or not.

The most intriguing aspects to me are the conditions of his plea bargain (do you have plea bargaining in OZ?). He can't sue the US for anything that happened while he was in custody; he can't talk with the media for one year; he can't allege any sort of mistreatment while in custody.

Our version of Hicks, John Walker Lindh, got a 20-year sentence (who knows how long he'll actually serve), and was prohibited from benefiting financially from any of his Taliban activities.

Ian - I can't say for sure about plea bargaining here in Oz. I would think there would be some mechanism in place that would be similar...but I shall endeavour to find out now.

On the Hicks issue, guilty or not guilty we will never know because the evidence was never tested in a court of law. He broke NO australian laws and could not be charged with anything here. the americans had to trump up new laws to charge him with anything at all.
BUT
an australian citizen abandoned overseas by our government, he broke no australian laws, charged with nothing for 5 years +, held unlawfully under all legal juridictions, ill treated by american authorities to achieve a confession, then charged under trumped up restrospective laws, then is told he can plead guilty and go home or he can plead not guilty and rot in hell. mmmmmmmmmmmm wonder what I would choose!!
funny the only time our government became interested in David Hicks' welfare was when it became a popular thing to do and was costing them votes. Their own party members were starting to pressure them to do something about an australian citizen being denied justice by the americans.
Tony Blair at least had the guts to stand up to George W. and protect his citizens who he knew were being unfairly and illegally treated.
Howard was so far up Bushes Tush that he wouldnt stand up for what is right and legally acceptable.
Read this article for some more information
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/a-trial-that-was-un comfortably-close-to-stalinist-theatre/2007/03/31/1174761817 919.html

The Rule of Law is one of the paramount rights and responsibilities of our way of life and should never be sacrificed for political gain. What is happening at Gitmo is wrong.

Dang, Rosemary, you rattled the china clear over here. Habeas corpus is often an early casualty around these parts when things look grim. A. Lincoln suspended H C during the civil war of 1861-65. President Grant suspended H C involving the KKK in South Carolina. 1941 - internment of Japanese, US citizens. Article 1 section 9 of the US constitution states; 'The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.' Don't take this to imply a defense for what is going on in Gtmo. (The beer there is lousy by the way, at least it was in 1965. It had preservetives added to it). But when a dragnet is cast, sometimes those who shouldn't be caught, get caught. Whether Hicks should or shouldn't have been gathered in, I don't know and probably never will. But one thing I know for sure, Sept. 11th 2001 isn't a fuzzy memory and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it more than likely is a duck.

What if an Indonesian citizen were caught in the same situation as Hicks? Would the fact that he broke no Indonesian laws have any significance? If (and it's a big ''if,'') the war is legitimate, Hicks has no complaint. If not, it's a different story. Would it make a difference if he were caught in Iraq rather than Afghanistan? John Walker Lindh was also captured in Afghanistan.

'No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Oh if only this were true throughout the whole world. There are countless countries holding 'prisoners' without a fair trial or rights to representation, Kenya, Somalia and others including the UK. It makes for a very sad state of affairs in this so called 'society' we live in. No-one forgets 9/11 and other countless atrocities around the world and nor should we but assumption of Innocent until proved Guilty seems to have taken a back seat

It must be time to crack open a good bottle now before the main course is served, what are we having??

André: (Four keystrokes for that little dammit over the e. If it was for a little dammit to open that bottle of wine, think of the extra expense. Hmmmm.) What kind of wine are we having, or is the a BYOB?
Reading your penultimate post, the Universal Declaration triggered a thought about a human rights issue that has been going on for millenia. That is 'white' slavery. It is a huge business today. Another sterling example of human behavior. I'm not sure that this is an invitation for general discussion because there doesn't seem to be a viable solution. So just take it as an observation if you want, or don't.

Mines a Chardonnay haven't yet joined the ranks of ABC (anything but Chardonnay) but am open to anything really, slightly dry and chilled.. There is such a snobbery about wine when really it should be whatever floats your boat! Perhaps a light hearted debate on wine..
(I think the little dammit is worth it, you could always put it through your accounts!! But then I am biased..)
White slavery hot topic here in the UK at the moment but yes mammoth task to dissect that one, we do have small projects up and running to help the victims re: The Poppy Project but as usual it is always after the 'event'.
So what is your poison??

Wine snobbery scenerio:
The last bottle of 1928 Chateau Mätrémeauffeau was sold at auction for an astounding 2.5 million euros. Every wine snob in the Northern hemisphere was in attendance. The lucky winner of the auction turned the bottle over to his valet to carry to a special chest in the boot of his Rolls. On the way out of the auction house, the valet tripped over an empty beer can, fell and shattered his wrist. At the very moment the wine bottle struck the pavement, breaking the neck, every person at the auction and those making online or phone bids became afficianados of the proper disposition of beer.

Google ''Hitler Wine'' for a few laughs...

Quite a few opinions expressed today, all of them against cropping the ears of Boxers, and in general. But a quick search leads to statements that the procedure reduces the possibilities infection and hematoma. Furthermore, the procedure is compared to spaying and neutering, neither of which is ''natural.'' Nor is circumcision, come to think of it.

Then there is cattle branding, pig rings, tattoos and posts stuck through the tongue, snaffle bits and 3 inch star rowels and tazers in grade schools. What I want to see is an animal rights activist with tattoos and body piercings raising holy ned about ear cropping.

André:
Back to the wine; I don't know anything about it. I hate to have to buy wine not knowing one from the other. If someone offers a glass, fine, like it or not are the only two options.
As far as taking advice, the one giving it more than likely is the type who buys Bud Lite so there's no credability there. The only two wines I know and know what I'm getting are chianti and burgandy. On the other hand, I can get misty eyed discussing the fine nuances of porters, ales and single malts.

Yes, I suppose it was nice back in the good old days, when folks took care of their families in times of trouble and did not look to the government for assistance. Now with the dole, spouses can finally say they are tired of dealing with medical problems their mate has and dump them; after all, the government will be there to pick up the tab. That 'sickness or health' vow is sooooo old fashioned. Why should they stay and suffer with someone who would, back in the good old days, already have died but for the 'blessings' of modern medicine anyway? Now when a spouse dies young, the government steps in and allows the living one to receive the deceased's social security; instead of forcing them back into the workplace and putting the little rotters back on the streets where the unlucky belong, like happened in the good old days. I have to quit now as my tongue is hurting my cheek.

Jim:
In res ipsa loquiter. With the courts of the land in locus parenti, there is no need to bother one's self with taking any form of personal responsibility. Isn't that what people want? If you spill a hot cup of coffee in your lap, someone will step in and pick up the cost of laundry and hand you a staggering stipend for your trouble, maybe even buy you a fresh cup. And isn't commitment something children do to their parents when it appears that they aren't going to die soon enough to let go of the trust fund? Hint; a wad of Skoal gives your tongue something to push around while it is in your cheek.

André - Shaw and Smith sauvignon blanc - a delightful little number that titillates the palate. Look out for it...

jeb - just googled Skoal, it's amazing what you learn on here...

jeb - Do you know I had to google porter!(And skoal too!) Had a trip to Ireland few years ago and spent a wonderful few hours in the Jameson Distillery in Midleton (someone had to didn't they). Excellent experience tasting the whiskey(and I purchased a bottle with my own name on it), I think I preferred the Irish to the Scottish but I still get that 'dettol' flavour coming through. Just looked in my special store and I have a Talisker(10yr), Bushmills malt(10yr), Macallan(10yr), Glenfiddich(12yr) and several of that Lophroaig stuff Ian, Lee and I talked about the other evening.. I just can't get the taste for it.. are there better ones around that I should know about?
Billy that sounds up my street, love a good sauvignon too..
(The reason I have these whiskeys is because my clients give them to me every year for Christmas in the hope of educating me, I fear a losing battle)

Auchentoshan (Pronounced 'Och’n’tosh’n')is supposed to be a nice little number...maybe jeb will get misty-eyed over this one, before getting blinded...

Ok new question
Why is it acceptable for a woman to be called many names if they sleep around but if a man does he is called 'lucky' or 'a stud'?

That might be true for single men and women, Rosemary, but not necessarily for those who are married. I've refused to do business with married men who fool around. If they disregard that most important contract, how will they conduct themselves if it's just money...my money?

Good one rose, think I might wait and see what the male response is first.. so we get a rounded view!! Although if you google Catherine Townsend she used to write for the Independent newspaper a while ago not sure if she still does but always an amusing read, found this link for some of her articles..
http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art&qt=% 22CATHERINE+TOWNSEND%22