Open Forum Discussions and Debate

Last weekend - we had our first drive-by shooting in the county. It was a gang shooting between two Mexican gangs. 2 have been arrested 18 & 20 - gang members are not allowed permits - it would be interesting to find out where the guns came into their posession.

We do have a problem with HEAVILY ARMED Mexican Cartels growing Marijuana is the area. Major busts were made that involved Sheriffs from 3 Oregon counties & 2 Calif counties along with the ATF.

Meth production is another problem. A couple of years ago in Ashland, an elementary school teacher's ex (actually only separated), was making Meth at her home. She was suspended with pay from her position. There was such an out cry from the community about what a good teacher she was that she was reinstated. My question is how could she have NOT known that her property was being used as a Meth Lab - as she claimed?

Yes Eve, I would wonder that too. That I think is another part of the problem, those who are enablers, and babies having babies....not knowing how to parent or disciple children as they grow.
We speak about values and responsibility, but forget that one can only teach what one has learned. Too many very young girls who have given birth during the last decade or so were prepared to deal with the real needs of a child beyond feeding and clothing it. Many did not have an ample education or financial security and had an uncertain support system around them.
They often became mothers because they were seeking someone to love them, and thought the baby would be an answer. It has been shown that babies deprived of love, gentle touches and cuddling from birth, are more likely to grow up as anti-social beings unable to love themselves. A young, single, under educated, stressed out parent, in need of many things is unable or unwilling to give more than just the basics to their children. I think CG's comment spoke to some of these problem folks.
Yes, I
agree that there are many fine folks in this world, and have witnessed acts of random kindness as well as random violence. Yes, there are evil folks who people this world....but Ian, they are still human beings. Hate has to be learned, and with no hope, and little history of being nurtured makes it an easy lesson to be absorbed.
People who are unloved or untaught may be prone to greater outside influences that are contrary to the social contract....but they deserve to be given some dignity by those of us who know better, and they must be seen as the very flawed, but none the less humans that they are. To not treat them in a humane manner only reduces our own status. What I don't understand is our inability/ desire to address many of these ills that affect our nation. Where are OUR responsible actions. Its not just guns that create the problems....its greater than that.....It must begin with each of us....It must start in our homes, we must hold our elected officials feet to the fire, in expectation of change. We the people need to do what our forefathers and mothers did..... take care of each other, have high expectations and take steps to see that they are brought to a state of fruition while understanding that nothing will completely eradicate all of the ills in the world! Yes, we can do better than we are now! Peace.

Eve, I can only read your stories and shake my head in bemusement that a teacher would need to have a gun at school to protect themselves and others. As for carrying a concealed weapon.... It is totally outside my understanding.
I object to the police in Australia who work in shopping centres carrying guns in their holsters. Who are they planning to shoot - a shop lifter?
The whole concept of needing to even own a gun is beyond my comprehension.
It sure makes me glad I live in Australia.

Victoria - recently a woman who had a concealed carry permit (I believe it was in Colorado) asked her pastor about being on security for this "mega" church she belonged to. He agreed it might be wise - with the events that a taken place locally at a religious school. As man walked in the church with rifles and other weapons from the parking lot, she shot him. He would of killed many people at that Church if it wasn't for her and the fact she was carrying a concealed weapon.

What I find funny is movie stars that preach against guns, then have their own body guards to protect them carrying weapons. Most people can not afford to pay for body guards. Those that carry concealed are trained and do not fire needlessly.

In Oregon at a school - one of the first school shootings in the US - when he went to reload, a couple of guys that new enough about guns waited for that opportunity to jump him - luckily they had the timing right. Another incident at a school (don't remember where) a teacher went out to his car to get his gun and killed the shooter after several had already been killed and wounded. Others would have been if he hadn't had the gun in his car. If he had had it on his person, maybe fewer would have died. I live in a fairly rural area (by city dweller standards) and the mentality here is don't take our guns away - they have been hunters, raised with guns and know when and how to use them. The problem is with gangs that get them illegally, and people who think it is "cool" to have a gun and don't care about or value life.

Accidents happen. A womanI worked with (in Los Angeles) daughter's baby was accidently killed at a friend's home. The friends had a gun in the top drawer of the night stand in their bedroom (they did not have children). The little girl had been laid down on the bed to sleep, while the friends and parents were eating. They heard the gun shot. The little girl had awoken, opened the drawer and played with the weapon - not knowing what it even was.

I can tell you the owner of the gun would have been charged in Oregon for not securing the weapon, but it was an accident in California. BTW: the area that these people lived was a fairly high crime area in LA & I can understand why they had a gun on the premises. It does not bring the little girl back and the grandmother was heart broken, but didn't blame the friends.

Considering all this talk on guns, maybe a lightening moment is needed.

Pierre, a brave French fighter pilot, takes his girlfriend, Marie, out for a pleasant little picnic by the River Seine. It's a beautiful day and love is in the air. Marie leans over to Pierre and says," Pierre , kiss me!"

Pierre grabs a bottle of Merlot and splashes it on Marie's lips. "What are you doing, Pierre ?" says the startled Marie.

"I am Pierre, the fighter pilot! When I have red meat, I have red wine!"

She smiles and they start kissing. Things began to heat up a little and Marie says, " Pierre , kiss me lower."

Our hero tears her blouse open, grabs a bottle of Chardonnay and pours it on her breasts.

" Pierre ! What are you doing now?" asks the bewildered Marie.

"I am Pierre, the fighter pilot! When I have white meat, I have white wine!"

She giggles and they resume their passionate interlude, and things really steam up. Marie leans close to his ear and whispers, " Pierre , kiss me much lower!

" Pierre rips off her underwear, grabs a bottle of Cognac and pours it in her lap. He then strikes a match and lights the cognac on fire.

Marie shrieks and dives into the River Seine. Standing waist deep, Marie throws her arms into the air and screams furiously, " PIERRE , WHAT IN THE F#@K DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?"

Our hero stands and says defiantly, "I am Pierre, the fighter pilot! If I go down, I go down in flames!"

I was going to put this under Arts for old Pharts but I thought this may open up a debate of sorts...or not. Just been to a talk given by Naomi Wolf:
"Naomi Wolf shot to fame with the publication of her first book, The Beauty Myth, named by The New York Times as one of the most important books of the 20th century. A landmark international bestseller, it launched a new wave of feminism in the early 1990s and established Wolf as an important social critic and political activist.

In her latest book The End of America:A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot Wolf questions the state of democracy in America, arguing that political freedom is under assault and identifying a ‘fascist shift' in American politics."

It was an emotive issue, and those who were vocal(and in agreement with her views) in the Q&A stage of the proceedings were mostly Americans ...I found a site that covers most of what she was espousing,
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/11/28/the_end_of_america_feminist_social

It would be interesting to hear from those living in the US whether you would agree or not with her views. It was compelling...

If I remember correctly, Naomi Wolf was Al Gore's fashion consultant during the 2000 election. She had him dressing in green & softer colors. I'm not kidding.

If you want a laugh about guns. See the cartoon on my page. It will be there for a couple more days.

Hey Billy, I read Wolf's reviews and thought the subject very interesting. As you say it would be good to get some response from the Americans on this site. Just hope it doesn't cause a meltdown

Billy...I'm intrigued by the topic you have put forth....I'm getting ready to check out the web site after dinner, but my initial reaction based on your summary is to agree with the author. I'm not suprised that many Americans agreed with her,and responded in an emotional manner. Fascism seems to describe the Bush administration's mind-set. It has been controlled by a select few who did not take complaints, suggestions or criticism well. They seemed to think that anything put forth by them was fact simply because they had said so. If the administration was challenged or crossed in their efforts, they would try to make trouble for those who dared oppose them. Many of those who have disagreed with the war effort have been accused of being unpatriotic since they weren't in lock step with everything proposed by these folks. This administration appeared to assume that all countries should do as they were told by the U.S.A...The paternalistic 'We know best" attitude has served to alienate many former loyal countries that sought to work with, but not to roll over and accept the dictates of another country. We have been involved in a war that should never have been, and involved other nations, resulting in the loss of far too many lives around the world. This has finaly gotten throught to the American populance and the results are shown in so many people, regardless of party affiliation, counting down to Jan. 20,2009. That day will bring a change...now the problem is what shape will that change bring....I pray that we can move beyond these last 71/2 years, and find and elect a leader who will once again allow the basic goodness of this country to shine once more. I love my country, but I am not proud of many things that have taken place in its near history or the distant past....yet I remain optimistic that we can and will do better.
I'm off of my soap box...but as you see it remains an emotional topic. I will now go read the link and look for MS. Wolf's book to read for myself as soon as I can.

Mamacita - From the other side of the fence (using your words – please consider):

Fascism seems to describe the GREEN AGENDA mind-set. It has been controlled by a select few who do not take complaints, suggestions or criticism well. They seemed to think that anything put forth by them was fact simply because they say so. If the ENVIRONMENTAL LOBBY is challenged or crossed in their efforts, they try to make trouble for those who dare to oppose them. Many of those who have disagreed with the KYOTO PROTOCOL & THE "GLOBAL WARMING" THESIS (NOW REFERED TO AS "CLIMATE CHANGE") are accused of being "HOLOCOUST DENIERS" (A DERAGATORY TERM USED TO PUT THEM IN THE "KOOK" CATEGORY) since they are not in lock step with everything proposed by these folks.

I recently wrote a paper entitled “Am I a Conspiracy Theorist?”. In it were questions that I have – things that, to me, made no sense.

1. Why did we pass a law to rid ourselves of incandescent lights - replacing them with florescent lights that are considered a "bio-hazard" because of the mercury in them? Who profits?

2. Why are we using food to fill our gas tanks? Ethanol uses more energy to produce than it provides. With the government subsidies (our Tax Dollars), lands are planted with corn rather than wheat. The price of corn rises (even with subsidies) as it is used for both fuel and food. Corn is a staple for feeding cattle and many human diets (e.g.: tortillas). The increase prices are putting people, who can not afford the higher costs at risk of starvation and cattle ranchers out of business. As lands planted in other crops are transferred to corn production for Ethanol, the price of Wheat and Oats rise - as does the price of bread and everything made from them. Are these unintended consequences - or if planned - why?

3. I believe we should be energy independent. Why do we: a) lock up the cleanest coal: Escalante National Monument (Clinton's Presidential declaration - when the next cleanest source of coal is in China), b) refuse to allow drilling in Anwar or off our coasts (while China is about to drill off it & not for us), c) remove hydro-electric dams rather than build them, d) not allow windmills off Hyanisport (destroys Ted Kennedy's view) or on the Oregon side of the Columbia Gorge (possible hazard to the nest of some rodent that is endangered on the south side of the gorge), e) not build nuclear power plants, coal processing plants, oil refineries........? Who gains from the USA not being energy independence?

4. We are fast becoming a country that does not produce products and are even "out sourcing" industries that provide our "National Security". Why? Who profits, could it be those that are holding the markers on our National Debt (China, Arabs)? What can be done to turn this around?

5. We use to be the "Bread Basket of the World". Here in Oregon - Pears were a major crop - today the orchards are quickly disappearing. Today, can we feed ourselves - let alone the world? Oh yes, these are the jobs Americans don't want to do and without Illegal workers the farmers will have to go out of business. Each illegal worker, costs the taxpayers for things that their wages do not cover. Between our vaunted ingenuity and/or paying higher wages, having teens learn something about working, I'm sure that Americans will do the job. So who gains from Illegals working the fields and orchards? Who gains from America being unable to feed ourselves, or the world?

6. What exactly are Carbon Credits and what do they accomplish? It looks like a shell game to me - which you will be the loser. So who is the winner? Those who are in charge of the purchase & sale of the carbon credits. Who are they and what do we gain or lose by this process? Is this socialism or capitalism? In either society, there those that have and those that have not - socialism generally has more "have nots".

7. Why after 6 1/2 years since 9-11, have our ports not been secured and our borders still remain wide open? Why are we not financing the building of a fence? Why are Ramos & Campeon in jail - rather than the drug dealer? Why are we giving Tax Payer ID Numbers (TINs) to people who are in this country illegally? Why are some states still giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens? [BTW: most visitors from foreign countries can drive in the US with their own country's license and an insurance card & those that are on other than a Visitors Visa (that are here legally) can get driver's licenses.] Why do we allow banks to open accounts without TINs or not checking to see if the TIN given is correct?

8. Why would any US citizen want to take the US Navy to court to stop their use of radar in search of submarines? The Ninth Circuit Court ruled against the US Navy, even if they turned the power down and did not use when whales were present. Anyone familiar with the US Court system would know why the Environmental Lobby filed the case with the 9th circuit (the most overturned circuit).

9. Why is the government referring to anyone who refers to the Texas Corridor Transportation Project as the NAFTA Super Highway a “Conspiracy Theorist” or those who question whether the “Security, Prosperity Partnership” is a stepping stone to the North American Union “Black Helicopter Believers”. Both these terms are used in a derogatory manner to picture them as “kooks” on the US Government’s web sites. Both these projects are being done under the auspice of NAFTA, so do not need to be brought to the Senate for ratification. When generals from the USA & Canada sign a mutual force agreement, for use of the other countries troops within their borders, why is this not taken before the Senate for ratification?

10. What is the difference between the Republican & Democrat Parties? The Democrat party base is supposedly comprised of "blue collar" workers, unionists & minorities (should add to the list Academia & the Media). The Republican Party base is supposedly comprised of business owners/managers (big & small), Evangelical Christians (I'd love to hear the difference between Christian and Evangelical Christian) & supporters of 2nd Amendment (without which the Constitution & other amendments are unenforceable). Yet both parties are selling America out from under us. Why?

Maybe I am “A Conspiracy Theorist” for questioning, but we all need to question what our government does. The problem is many times we do not even know what they are doing; too busy trying to figure out what we can GET from the government. What we need to look at is what the government is taking from “We the People”.

The difference is 10¢.

Eve,You will not get any arguement from me about most of the points that you have put forth. I don't see much difference in the way either party has acted in the past either.
I am in particular agreement with your point about the need for the people to have more information, and lacking the will to delve in to expose wrong doings,or unfair practices, because we are looking for special breaks that benefit the few. We do need to question, and continue to question until we know what's going on...that's OUR responsibility! We need to hold those we elect to goals that are well known to all. We need to curb the time and money that is spent on running for elective offices. We need to realize that local policies are important, and we need to look at issues that affect where we live, and address them, while realizing that we live in a 'United' States, and must look at issues fairly across the board. In the long run, what affects those in the west, mid-west,south or north will affect everyone.
We the people have not been doing what we should have been doing and it seems as if we have the type of government that we have earned.
If we want a more responsive government,( and I really do) we have to begin to arm ourselves with the knowledge and will to go after it. We need to stop being so insular in our thinking worldwide. We must be aware of how our policies and actions are viewed around the world as well as at home. There is much to be done and much that can be done, but it requires dedicated, leadership and a committed populance to bring about change!

Being a 'typical' male, I have a question and a comment. The question: why do people report male oriented jokes (say with the word pen-s in them) as abusive but allow female oriented jokes to stay on the site as not abusive? The comment: I know most of the people on the site are female and enjoy good 'hard' jokes with 'deep' meanings, but when we do have children visiting the site (Claude grandson Elea and Martha's 15 year old daughter in the last week alone), why are some very sexually explicit jokes being posted and why are some abusive but others aren't? Is there a double standard or have we just gotten away from funny, pun-like jokes (i.e. the angel on the top of the Christmas tree)? I have never had a joke removed as abusive other then one I posted and then thought better of it and I asked Gath to remove it. We seemed to have lowered the site standards in the last few months.

I agree Greg. We should remember that this is not an adults only site. I don't think sexually explicit jokes should be posted. Sure, they can be really funny, but nothing a child should be reading! If it's too risqué, send it via personal e-mail!

I understand what you are saying Greg and admit I may be one of the offenders. The jokes I put on site are those that I think will make people laugh but I think it's important to place jokes in the 'joke' category. If people are offended by some jokes, and I'm sure with the membership we now have some might be, then all they need to do is not select that category. It is hard to draw the line, or even know where it is. We've all covered up unacceptable words with ****. That said, most people enjoy a good belly laugh and I sure do get a few of those on this site.

Where do we draw the line between funny, hilarious, risqué and offensive?

I understand what you are saying CG. I think that we should remember that this is not an adults only site and that even blanked out words do not remove the gist of the joke. so if it is not suitable for ALL to read then it shouldnt be posted.

CynB
as adults we should understand what we wouldnt want children to read.

This is not a question of deselecting the joke category. The average person coming on this site who has not been on before doesn't know they can (or should) deselect jokes. As Rosemary said in her post, if a joke isn't acceptable for all to read, it might not be wise to post it. I'm no prude, but some of the jokes in the last few months that have not been reported as abusive have been quite crude and are not what I would want my child or grand child to read when they visit the site.

Anecdotally speaking, I spent 7 years in the Navy. I learned and entirely different vocabulary from the one I use now and nothing that anybody could possibly say here would faze me. Within months of my discharge to civilian life and becoming accustomed to life on campus, I met an interesting co-ed. Within seconds, I did a complete remap of every noun and verb I had at my command. Then came the meeting of the parents. The jokes around the dinner table reminded me of a nine month at-sea deployment. The point is, the degree of blue humour imparted to a joke, story or whatever has to be predicated on how well the teller knows their audience. It is easy to make value judgments and assume some latitude where the display of other peoples humor has been seen, but there are many who we may never see that visit the site daily and read everything the regulars have to say. Who is to say that someone's sweet little old aunt granny lady that never said a 'darn' in her life isn't out there and nearly tips over backward in her wheelchair every time a 'gender' joke comes across.

I have really gotten a laugh from some of the recent jokes, but I must admit that when I saw that Martha's 15 year old daughter posted on the same page as some of the risque jokes...I cringed and felt a tad embarrassed. I'm sure many of today's teens have heard or read jokes we would not necessarily approve for them...but we don't need to provide it on our pages. Those who have posted these jokes most likely were not thinking about some of our younger visitors I'm sure. Perhaps this convo can act as a reminder for us as we post.

Thanks Jeb and Mamacita - good points and made without being judgemental. No more jokes from me.

The primary mantra of any leadership situation is "Set The Example". Be a good idea to keep that in mind too. Sometimes it gets past me too.

Cyn B, I do hope no one is being judgemental, and please continue to post jokes. Everyone enjoys a good joke, and this discussion was certainly not meant to point fingers at anyone, just to raise the issue.

If I have offended any one with any of my jokes I'm sorry. I will keep them to myself from now on, I think the site will be a little bit sadder for it.

Greg, I feel that I cannot continue to post jokes because nobody has been able to answer my question - where do we draw the line and who decides? What I think is funny someone else may find offensive and vice versa.
eaa - I will miss your jokes, can I give you my email addy?

Oh boy...have to admit that I have had a jolly good laugh at some of the risque jokes and have probably been guilty of adding one or two.[of course it is a matter of perception and that is what we tend to forget]

I do agree that we all need to remember that this site is visited by many from various ages and walks of life and to post accordingly....

Having said that, and not wanting to miss out on my dose of belly laughs, perhaps we should start a page devoted to jokes and remove them from the puzzle pages all together.


M

Good idea, Bean,

For crying out loud! Don't stop posting jokes! There isn't a joke afloat that can't be run through filters and made family friendly and still retain it's punch line. It may take a little more creative writing, but it can be done.

CynB
I was not pointing the finger at you or anyone when I said as adults we should know what is acceptible for children to read.
But Jeb has said it well as have others that we have to know the audience and what is acceptible for them. That is why I said we have to make the jokes readable for all ages.
I think taking into consideration what we might want our children or grandies to be exposed to is a fairly good guideline.

AGREE 100% Jeb. The point here is not to stop posting jokes, just use some discretion.

I think we're all agreed then. Thanks Jeb.

Phew! Glad that is resolved. I had visions of entire populations disappering from the site and complete libraries of japes, quips, whimseys and flimflams fading away for ever.

well, the Discussion is over, on this topic..is that what I gather?
and dunno why I feel like putting this here!!!
DISCUSSION, n.
A method of confirming others in their errors.
(Devils Dictionary)

Appy - would like a copy of that dictionary!!

999 can I help you?????

I'm an egg and I'm all quacked up and thats no yoke but I think I'll be all white.