Open Forum Discussions and Debate

It seems, Ian, to be another aspect of the basic philosophical differences between a focus on the rights and wellbeing of the individual as being primary rather than a focus on the collective rights and wellbeing of the community/nation. Both, of course, assume wisdom in the ones exercising these rights - and that is where any system can fail.

I grew up in a household that had all different types of guns. When us kids were growing up, we were taught how to clean, handle and shoot some of them. We were also taught to respect what they could do and not to point them at anyone.

If someone is bound and determined to harm one person or many people, he/she is going to find a way to do it, whether it be legal or illegal.

Most countries that have strict gun control still have shootings. Last year (if I remember correctly) in Canada quite a few bodies were discovered shot to death. Just recently the mayor of Nagasaki, Japan was shot in front of his campaign office. He died today.

No, I do not own a gun and I do not trust the government. But, I'm tired of other countries condemning the US population everytime there is a tragedy caused by someone who I would consider deranged.

The right to bear arms also has to do with the responsibilities of citizenship. The second amendment connects the right to bear arms with the 'security of a free state,' which suggests that an obligation of a citizen in a democracy is to defend that democracy.

ditto,ditto,ditto to your last comment,BJ!!!!!!!!

Brenda Ann Spencer (born April 3, 1962 in San Diego, California, United States) wounded eight children and one police officer and killed Principal Burton Wragg, and head custodian Mike Suchar, in a shooting spree at Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, on Monday, January 29, 1979.

The school was across the street from her house. She used the rifle she had recently been given for Christmas from her father. When the six-hour incident ended and the sixteen-year-old was asked why she had committed the crime, she shrugged and replied, 'I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day.' She also said: 'I had no reason for it, and it was just a lot of fun,' 'It was just like shooting ducks in a pond,' and '(The children) looked like a herd of cows standing around, it was really easy pickings.'

BJ - No country can claim to be free of violence. The issue seems to be about the level of violence and the conditions that foster it. The ready availability of weapons is only one of many factors, but it certainly can't be discounted. A deranged person who is able to readily obtain an arsenal of lethal weapons can do a lot of damage in a very short space of time. The response that comes when an incident such as the horrific events this week occurs is not a condemnation of the American population as such. Many of the people who have expressed concern about what some call the 'gun culture' are American citizens. It's about the circumstances that allow such an incident to occur on such a devastating scale. Nobody likes to hear of such a tragedy and our hearts ache for those involved in any way.

What I was trying to get at is that we as a culture have fallen down on the job as parents and role-models. Too many parents want to be their child's friend instead guiding them into adulthood with morals. A lot of young people are not prepared for failure of any kind. I was taught that you win some and you lose some.

Corky, if Ms. Spencer would have had a moral upbringing, the thought of killing probably would not have crossed her mind. I find her parents as much to blame as she is. I had access to my father's guns and never once shot at any living creature.

Judy, it is easier to obtain the materials for a fertilizer bomb and vehicle to deliver the payload than it is to get a weapon. There are restrictions and laws governing gun ownership in the US, but there is no laws about obtaining the materials to make a bomb.

Would everyone be as condemning if this young man would have driven one of these bombs into a crowded pep rally and possibly killed more students?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against gun control laws. I don't understand why an average citizen would want a semi-automatic or anything more powerful. But, I do believe that I should have the option of buying a gun to protect my family, to go hunting or just to 'plink' tin cans where it is safe.

Fair enough, BJ. Most countries that have gun control legislation don't prohibit private ownership of guns, but have licensing provisions and laws about proper storage of guns, etc. Of course, that doesn't stop the criminal element who will always find ways of obtaining weapons illegally - but they're not usually the ones responsible for the crazy, random shootings that take innocent lives.
As for the obtaining of materials that can make fertilizer bombs - in this country there are now laws that endeavour to control the purchase of such items also. It's a sad world when a farmer has to prove his need of fertilizers, but that's what we've come to. And yes, I do believe people would have been just as condemning if the young man had used a bomb rather than guns. In the end, what horrifies us all is the inhumanity of such a random, senseless and deliberate taking of innocent lives. Whenever it happens, the natural reaction is to ask what can be done to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

Judy, I understand where you're coming from. This country is gradually passing and enforcing more laws governing gun ownership. I don't see laws being passed anytime soon in regards to fertilizer. The main reason is that agriculture and ranching are major industries here.

No one I've spoken to about Virginia Tech is not dumbfounded about the killings. There were warning signs, but no one took any action other than to recomend that he see a counselor. I'm sorry, but the few friends and family he had could have done more.

When I was teaching, there were students that I was concerned about. I spoke with them and the administration. One dropped out, one commited suicide and another is going to graduate school studying molecular biology. Since I quit, I don't know how the others turned out.

I had a student some years ago, Becky, who seemed to have the potential to do something really dangerous. As is often the case, he came from a dysfunctional family. When I learned of his early death in an accident, I'll admit that I almost felt a sense of relief that he could no longer harm anyone else. There will always be people who need the kind of help that others can't provide.Unfortunately, it's impossible to protect society completely from the psychotic.

Thanks for an interesting exchange of ideas - and stay safe.

And what are the greatest threats to that democracy, a gunman or a totalitarian government? The gunman is certainly a greater threat to my personal safety, but the government is a far greater threat to my freedom and dignity as a human being. That consideration informs my choice.

Great exchange everyone. Ian/B ... I still like the 'Preventation is better than Cure' philosophy
I note Judy/Bendigo comment 'As is often the case, he came from a dysfunctional family' and pose the question, 'what constitutes a dysfunctional family?'

or what constitutes a 'normal' family?
God jaz - that is a tough one as we are all products of our past, it is how we choose to live in the present and the future that is our own personal 'challenge'. One would hope that a moral sense of what is right and what is wrong, what is acceptable and what is not, is uppermost in our minds when bringing up children. And yet that is not a given: everyone's morals, sense of justice, integrity, everything you can just about name that we would wish to ingratiate into the lives of our children/families are all different.
A dysfunctinal family may well deem that they are doing everything to the best of their ability given the circumstances that they may find themselves in...most families I would imagine have their idosyncrasies, it's how we deal with them/rise above them that may make the difference...
tired..off to bed, hope it made snense. still spaced out from yoga.

scuse spelling above...dysf/idio..oh hell too tired to type now.

What’s the greater threat to democracy? Surely it’s not an either/or question. A single gunman in a given context can act tyrannically, but so too can a government to which too much power is ceded. The real question for me is, what can we do to arm ourselves against tyranny in any form? In some instances, weapons may be needed, and this is why the 2nd amendment remains necessary. But aren’t there also other and perhaps better ways that we can arm ourselves against tyranny?

From studies in history, the second ammendment was in response to the United States having to militarily through England out of this country. I don't think there are any groups that would actually attack the US Army, Marines, State/National Guard, or Navy. As cited earlier, there are sufficient checks and balances that even a madman like Dick Nixon as President will not be able to take control over the United States using military force, they were not just following orders. The NRA is the largest group of lobbiests in Washington and use every scare tactic available to keep guns available to anyone that wants one.

Ian/B, Anne?Vermont and others: I was not attaking the 2nd Amendment, only trying to raise the piont the the sale of firearms should be restricted. What does the average American need with a semi or fully automatic weapon? Why was the fellow in Virginia able to walk into a store and purchase a Glock? What was his rationale? Lots of rats in the neighbourhood that needed killing? The US should restrict the sale of these types of weapons, and if that happened, their MIGHT be less of these muliple death incidents.

Sorry for the spelling mistakes.

CG: Refer to the previously posted (penultimate page) tirade, somewhat in the style of Eric Idle, concerning spell checkers. And as far as walking into a store and buying a Glock, I doubt seriously that he did. The news I read indicated that the serial numbers had been filed off. That makes it more likely that it was a back street alley purchase.

Jeb-they are saying that he (the gunman) filed off the serial numbers himself and they were able to raise the numbers and he had the receipt on him for the glock the store owner remembers the sale and he passed all the VA. gunlaws.but so much more is coming to light today he has had a mental disorder and had been in a mental hospital,the question there is people alerted them one teacher and female students.should he have been living on campus?should there be mental reports filed with the states? and of course everyone would say no to that it would be a invasion of privacy so what is the answer?guns can be obtained as Jeb said in a back alley and he had this planed,a sick person with this much rage can't be stopped by laws.

Jeb, Informational only item...not trying to debate the issue. I read and heard that a shop owner was describing the shooter as a calm, clean-cut individual and didn't present a picture of one who was planning on committing an act like this. Apparently not looking like a bad guy is enough to not raise questions when he/she is able to provide the needed ID to make the legal purchase. The shooter apparently then took time to file the serial numbers off. This shop owner had sold him one of the guns, however, he did have a receipt for the other one in his backpack.
This brings to mind the age old question...What does a monster(bad guy/gal) look like? It seems to me that we still attempt to judge people by the way they look and we keep coming up short.

Thanks for the update. My information was obviously old enough to render it useless. And, I suppose, if I were to be planning a crime of any sort and needed to purchase equipment to carry it out, I would try to present myself in the least suspicious way that I could.

...jeb - packing a golf bag, skoal firmly ensconced and walking like John Wayne? innocent as a lambikins - I'd sell you anything.

He had been planning this for quite awhile. He bought one gun then waited a week and bought another. In VA. you can't purchase more than one gun a week (absolutely ridiculous law!). He had no problem with the background checks as he had no record. His hospitalizations were overnight. He wasn't arrested, hence, no record. The two hours in between shootings he spent mailing pictures, letters, etc. to NBC. Because of an incorrect address, it wasn't received promptly. I beleive he would have obtained the guns illegally, if need be. He was so filled with rage I also believe he would have found a way to murder even if he wasn't able to purchse the guns. That said, I still think THE GUN LAWS MUST BE CHANGED. There is absolutely no reason for the average person to own an automatic weapon. They should not be sold. Period. What else needs to happen to get these ELECTED officials to wake up and stop pandering to the NRA, etc?
Sigh.

Billy you forgot to say the immortal words...
I'm a sapiosexual, what's your sign?

silly me...note new avatar - explains everything...

I got in trouble last night at the library. I saw this very pretty lady reading a high level book on philosophy and walked up and asked if I could have a sapiosexual relationship with her. My jaw still hurts.

Just saw this in response to Virginia Tech, et al: GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE - People who are anti-social, mentally disturbed (and possibly evil), and who have easy access to guns due to lax gun control laws, kill people.

Well, there you have it, Bill. Wrong place and wrong time. The lady was obviously there under (you never said what color her hair was) false pretenses. Had you engaged her in a debate on Spinoza's arguments against Descartes' dualistic theory, you would have discovered her to be an imposter and would have never needed the services of an ice pack. The best places to use that pick up line are at NASCAR ticket counters, bait shops and used car dealerships. Greasy spoon diners are fertile hunting grounds as well.

Bill/Texas: Boy, do I want THAT bumper sticker!


Jeb/ks: LOL And you know this because????

Kathy:
I had three semesters of philosophy safely tucked away when the professor and I came to a disagreement over some arcane point of epistemology. He accused me of being a (imposter) so out of outrage I changed my major to Business Admin. That is how I became acquainted with the concept of exchange for goods and services. Thought I was going to tell you about picking up chicks didn't you?

Jeb/ks: I certainly did! My disappointment knows no bounds.

Aren't all points of epistemology arcane? Philosophy vs. Business Admin? hmmm...think you made the right choice.

When I was in college, uni, I took some philosophy classes and once in a coffee shop after class we had a very heated discussion between a group of realist and a group of idealists. It got so heated that the campus police were called, they ended up being philosophy students too, but they were absurdists, they arrested the waiter.

Thank you Bill! I have always admired the clarity of thought shown by the absurdist camp. I was about to leave a message for Rosemary to toss a kibble. The hounds seemed to be asleep under the porch.

Ok questions for all to ponder
Are you afraid of getting old?
And
Would you prefer to live in the retirement home or live with young people?

Maybe can add
what are you unable to do now that you are older that you used to be able to do when young?
what are you able to do now that you couldnt when younger?

well jeb here i am with some philosophical lexicons!
i know not many words mentioned in the list,but still the definitions are worth learning!and the application of the word in terms of short sentences is really a bonus...With a little practice these terms can become an important part of your vocabulary, to the point that you will wonder how philosophy ever proceeded without them....
stay tuned guys..its past 11.30 pm and i will log back in the morning with the alphabet 'a'.......

Good kibble, Rosemary.
I look at getting old much the same as sitting in the dentist's chair. I keep telling myself that this too shall pass. It will get worse, but it will pass.
Over the last few years, I've enrolled in some classes of interest at the local college. Being around young people is much more enlightening that hanging around a bunch of old farts that can't see past the end of their noses and compare notes on their morning BM.
Can't do:
Run the 10K at the annual River Festival any more.
Shoulder my deluth pack and canoe and hump 'em over the 340 rod Horse portage.
Hang around a bunch of kids and understand what they are talking about.
Can do:
Flirt with young ladies and be thought of as 'cute'.
Use less imagination when needing an excuse for forgetting to do something.
Hang around a bunch of old farts and understand what they are talking about.

ap:
I am waiting impatiently for you list. If it's as good as the engineering list is should be awesome.

hi all