Open Forum Discussions and Debate

I remember we were watching tv about 10.30pm when the show started scrolling 'news ribbons' of the attacks on the twin towers. The news came on but with no mention of the attacks as our late night news is time delayed 2 hrs from Sydney. They then had to break into the news with the 'real'news live from the US. It was surreal. People who had gone to bed early were stunned to learn what they had missed overnight....a new landscape figuratively and metaphorically.

I remember the day Diana died. It was the day after my D#1's 10th birthday. A mate of my son's rushed in saying that Princess Diana was dead. I told him that it couldn't possibly be true but alas, we know he was right. Terribly sad. On the day of her funeral, my sisters, girlfriends and I gathered together to watch. We had many toasts to Diana, Princess of Hearts, and when the mourners were throwning flowers onto the car, we were throwing them onto the floor in front of the TV! We probably toasted her a little too much. Please don't think us disrespectful, it was an emotional day.

9/11 - It was Mr P's 50th birthday and we had been out for dinner - came home and flicked on the television to see it all happening before our eyes. We were glued there for ages in disbelief.

When Diana died we were in Hawaii, and hosting a party for our fellow Aussie Defence families when one of them arrived and told us the news. Of course we then put the television on and again watched in disbelief. I attended a memorial service for her at the Episcopalian cathedral in Honolulu, and sat up alone crying to watch the funeral.

I remember 9/11/01, I was at home on bedrest, pregnant with daughter #1. I was glued to the TV all day. I kept calling Hubby, Mom and MIL to make sure everyone was ok (even though we were Ohio). I was very concerned about what kind of world we were brining a child into.

I don't remember this, obviously, but it is a significant piece of family lore: My parents were married at her home in a small town in Southern Oklahoma the morning of December 7th, 1941. They planned on honeymooning in Ft. Worth, Texas. After all the wedding festivities, they started off down the road. Half way to Ft. Worth, the news of the Pearl Harbor attack came over the radio. Dad's father was the chairman of the hometown draft board at the time and he would know what to do. Dad called him, and asked what should he do under these new circumstances. His father's response was, 'Don't call your father on your honeymoon and ask for advice." And hung up.

JFK assasination: Vivid memory of Navy boot camp in San Diego, sitting at the center board writing a letter when the announcement came over the 1-MC. And in Aug. of '64 the Maddox and Turner Joy incident. Sitting in the base E club quaffing a cold one when the call to duty stations was announced. Nobody knew what was going on, but by golly we were going to be ready.

How 'bout the day the Challenger blew up?

Jeb, love the family lore...his father was right! Challenger was an 'oh, wow' moment but I don't think that significant. We felt sorry for the astronauts, of course, but it was just reality saying space travel is very dangerous ...you've been lucky so far but see what can happen. It didn't change us to the extent of some of the other events...or maybe that was just us in Oz.

9/11

I was home, in my sewing room, working on a quilt for my hubby. hubby was drinking coffee in the living room and watching TV. Just as I walked through, the Today show went to live coverage of the "accident" of the first plane.

When I heard it was an American Airlines flight, I picked up the phone. A very good friend was a AA flight attendant, her husband a pilot, and many of her relatives were flying also. I had to know if they were safe and hold her hand till she located all her family. one of the pilots was diverted to Canada, and a sister in law was grounded in Paris for 3 days.

My sister was in New Jersey just across the river and saw the buildings go down. Some of her co-workers were lost in the trade center. Sis had been working there just the week before. (they were a consultant team for computer programs) She collected all her team and they rented a van and drove back to Atlanta. It was a few months fore she could fly again.

I find that somehow it seems more "real" when you know someone involved.

I shall be putting up a photo of a quilt my cyber quilt group made in memory of all those lost that day. Their names were written on the blocks.

11/22/63 - The day before we had left our home in Texas - my husband (who had been drafted at 23 after the Berlin wall went up & he sat on the shore of GA waiting to go to Cuba during the missle crisis) was being transfered from Fort Hood to Camp Irwin, CA (nearest point to home) to muster out.

We were coming into Mesa, AZ when cars were pulling off to the side of the road. We turned the radio on and heard that the President had been shot in Dallas and was being taken to Parkland Hospital.

My first thought was: president of what? Living near Waco, our television programing was out of Dallas. I was well aware that Kennedy was comming to Dallas - it was a big deal. When they announced that the President had died. I couldn't believe it or fathom that anyone would shoot the President of the United States. Yes, some "un-civilized" countries asassinate their leaders - but not here.

It was a rather somber homecomming that evening, to say the least. And then to see the asassination of Oswald live on TV that Sunday morning before Church was surreal.

When my husband had to report in at Camp Irwin, they kept him to the very last day of his two years - just sitting around waiting to get out. There was talk of extension for Vietnam with the change in Presidents, the extension did not come through and he got out on his date (two weeks before Christmas). I believe it was the following month that the extensions began. He never went to Nam.

9-11 I had fallen asleep the night before with the TV on and awoke to a BREAKING NEWS a small plane had crashed into the World Trade Center, they had cameras on the tower burning and were discussing if it was a small plane or a larger plane, when they announced that it was an American Airlines Flight.

I got up walked upstairs and called my Mom, who is a Travel Agent and asked her if she had any clients on the flight. Told her to turn the TV on. Went back downstairs to bed and was watching as the second plane hit the other tower. I knew immediately that this was no coincidence. I picked up the phone in the bedroom and called Mom and she had also been watching as the plane hit. After hanging up, I got dressed and walked over to the neighbors, who I knew were probably up and getting ready to go to work (since it was after 6). I told them we are at War, with who I did not know, then told them about the planes hitting WTC and to turn on their TV. I was numb - from the time the second plane hit for nearly a week.

When they said that all planes were grounded, I remembered that my girl friend was flying up from So. Calif for the Kenny G concert that night at Britt and called her knowing she wouldn't have left for the airport yet. The concert that night and the next (final Britt concert of the season) had to be cancelled because Kenny G couldn't get a flight either.

As I watched the events transpire that day, the numbness got ever stronger, and lasted longer. I attended the memorials here, and prayed that idiots didn't attack people because of their ethnicity or religion. I was apart of the multitudes of mourners for people I never knew. My heart went out to their familes.

The Kenny G concert was rescheduled nearly 2 week later. But, my girl friend couldn't attend at that time. The concert started with a tribute to those lost on 9-11 and their families.

I have been a firm supporter of our troops throuout the conflicts, sending shipments of Gary West Jerkey (a local producer), for a taste of home to our local National Guard Units that have served in Afganistan and in Iraq. They are in my prayers and I hope in yours.

May 21, 1991, the former prime minister Rajiv Gandhi(46) was assassinated by a suicide bomber, who was a female member of the LTTE(LIBERATION TIGER OF TAMIL ELAM)...it was vacation time, and there was a big family reunion arranged by my uncle.We just finished the grand lunch and collected the pressies, and after a wonderful time started dispersing, around midday, when the TV flash news announced the assassination of the young politician and leader Rajiv Gandhi..it came as a big blow for us 'coz we were hoping for a change in the leadership in the center..and he was a promising alternative..sad, I can never forget the day as it happened to be my hubby's b'day..

Dec 26, 2004..the killer wave strikes the indian subcontinent..a natural calamity of this enormity has never been faced by us till then..and we were not prepared for it totally..caught unaware and the casualities were very high..my home state Tamilnadu was the worst affected with 7,000(total 11,000) people killed and 100 thousand people displaced..I was in B'lore then and I could hardly understand whats it all about for I had the least idea about the killer waves..(knew nothing abt it other than what I learnt in my geo class!) when the news of the people dead started trickling in I was dumbstruck and scared for the first time in my life regarding a natural calamity! I can never see my beach the same way again..its a demon now who have swallowed thosands of humans..it is hardly 5 km from my house, still I seldom visit it.

Thanx Appy for sharing and broadening our knowledge. Disasters can happen anywhere and to anyone

The Challenger explosion was significant to me because I was there. My son was home from school that day with a sore throat and was devistated because he couldn't be at school with all the launch festivities. He was going to Challenger Elementary at the time and the school had been visited by a few of the astronauts the previous week. So when launch time came we went out on the porch to watch with the radio reporting the liftoff. We watched it go up and then instead of a single plume, there were many, all falling into the ocean. There was dead silence on the radio, then we were informed to get inside and close the windows in case of toxic gasses. We were always under the impression that the capsule would safely come back to earth in case of emergency. Not so,although we hoped. It was hours before we got any real news of what was happening at the Space Center, whether ground support was safe (our family and friends). My son had nightmares for a long time about the event, as did my friends on the dive recovery team. Until recently, that was the last launch that I photographed and I always hold my breath watching them now.

Ceecee, it must have been horrible to have been there, but I've always held my breath if I've seen a view of a lift-off. When you really think about what they are doing and that everything needs to be perfect..it's amazing that so many have succeeded. One day it will be as common as aircraft take-offs, but I still hold my breath at those too

I've never seen a take off, but have seen landings, at Edwards. You could always tell when a shuttle was landing in So. Cal - there are 2 distinct booms that shake the windows (no accompaning movement so not an earthquake) - the first few were startling if you did not know that they were landing.

Went out early one Saturday Morning to see it land. As my father (who had worked at Lockheed) called it a flying rock. It did a wide spiral landing with chase planes, that looked like flies through the binoculars. It was a magnificent site. This was maybe the third shuttle landing. There were thousands out to watch. The next time was years latter and there were few observing.

I'm always glad when they land safely after the last explosion.

Two weeks ago in our national newspapers there was much talk about having a national DNA database after two people on separate occasions took their case to court to have their DNA removed from the database after they had been falsely accused of certain crimes and for which they were subsequently cleared. They were both successful and their DNA was removed but it raised the question should we have a national DNA database/international database or is ‘big brother’ looming. What are your views for or against?

well if you think the DNA typing similar to that of finger prints,or the copy of Iris then I reckon ,no issue..the DNA typing is an advanced way of copying ones identity..if a finger print database can exist why not a DNA??
Use of DNA evidence will minimize the risk of future wrongful convictions.
But one disadvantage of using a DNA evidence is that the police and the juries may be blinded by the science, and they are unlikely to comprehend the genetic info, and may not be able to question it!

André I'm curious. How could DNA evidence 'prove' they did the crime when they didn't? Isn't this a worry also?

Mary their DNA was taken but it proved negative as did the evidence against them but they wanted all details of DNA removing from the database because they had committed no crime.

OK, so at present the Database is for 'suspect' or 'criminal' DNA? So there is obviously a huge stigma attached to being on it. That would have to be addressed. Maybe offer incentives (as with bonds) a prize for DNA of the Month?
Sorry, on a more serious note, is there a need for a 'universal' database? Would/could it be used for anything other than crime detection? How has Iceland managed their system? Is it comparable?

What system do Iceland have in place Mary? And yes at present the DNA database is held on criminals only and unsolved crimes with DNA evidence but they are talking about including everyone on the database at a future date. My feelings are this could be misused,corruption within the system etc etc.

But at the same time I feel we would be naive to think that no information is held on us, at present we have credit check systems, passports, driving licenses, what cereal we eat for breakfast, the list goes on so personal information is already held on us to some extent but it is how far we want to extend that.

just checking before I retype

must be getting thrown off for 'naughty' words...will retype my completely innocuous remarks slowly

DNA is also used to 'predict' the likelihood of genetic or other diseases. I THINK in the US, insurance companies can already access such info on an individual level to deny coverage or claims(?)

Iceland, with its genetic h o m o geneity has 'sold' the genetic material of its nationals to a research company for health research.

the h word must have been the problem!
The Icelandic database is supposed to be inviolate but there is always the possibility of corruption within the system.

yay 4th time lucky!

I had a discussion one day and how do we know that the government of Australia does not already have a data base. For a long time now we have been having our babies heel pricked at birth, and a blood sample taken, and kept on a card. How do we know that this D.N.A is not being kept in a data base somewhere.

deb..in regards to your comment about Bush trying to cover up the release of "inconvenient truth". They tried to do the same thing to Michael Moore when he released "Farenheit 9-11". Even disney tried to block its released (like why would they care right?) The Bush family is extremely wealthy and well connected. I dont know how it is in your country, but here in US..they pass out 250,000 political contribution (ie bribes) like we'd invite a buddy out and buy them lunch. Heads of corporations stick together not to mention media. If you watch F9-11 you will see how the race was neck-in-neck. when florida was being tallied. Gore actually did win the election, but Fox news (who are on the payroll) announced that bush had won. Then the other networks (on the payroll to0) followed their lead and changed their previous statments. Scores of voters were left off. You will see how heads of several wards/districs (black areas of that are usually democratic)came forth to challenge it.

There seems to be a great deal of resentment here toward those who have made contributions to society and profited from it, whether it be oil, pharmaceuticals, computers, or anything else. But the greatest betrayal of the "working class" was by the working class itself and by their leaders.

In the 1920s and 30s and through the 1960s, the most powerful ecomonic and political force in the US was unionism. The unions, their members and leaders, controlled enormous amounts of money and had the political influence that went with it.

Had they simply converted a portion of their assets into shares in the very same companies whose workers they represented, they would now own those companies completely, ushering in the purist form of Marxist philosophy, the ownership by the proletariat of the means of production. They would own Microsoft, Merck, Exxon and General Motors. They would hire the CEOs, elect the board, and most importnt, the workers would set their own salaries, and have to do so with an eye toward whether they were paying themselves so much that the business they owned would fail and they would ultimately lose their jobs. They did not choose to accept that responsibility and self-determination. They were too interested in fomenting strife and creating an "us-against-them" mentality, from which the union leadership could profit personally. And the rank and file were more interested in a few extra pennies and benefits today than in true investment in their own futures. They had no interest in owning the means of production, because that would have meant that they would have to spend some of their leisure time worrying about the businesses they owned (like owners and managers have to). They chose not to, preferring to have their leisure time unenencumbered by the need to do a little homework to protect their assets.

And that is a substantial part of why the world is the way it is. You don't always get what you deserve, but you seldom get more.

Ian, We have something we call 'tall poppy syndrome' in Australia. If anyone is popular and/or successful, the media dig until they can find dirt on them and knock them down until they are not only as bad as everyone else, but worse. Of course the media only does it because it earns them ratings so although they are the ones who do the digging and publishing, it is as if we are placing the order.... So big business making profits - must be crooked; beautiful celebrities - must have an eating disorder/drug addiction/beat their children/have had surgery/whatever makes them seem less....; it's lose lose for everyone. We need our heroes!

Suzy:
You are so right about the media - same here in UK - to the extent that the media make people famous by giving them unearned attention and promotion, for the simple purpose of being able to future knock them down with a smear campagn. The media pundits appear to believe that 'this is what the public want'. I don't believe that is true - universally anyway. Hopefully many of the public see through this ridiculous scam.

Lars Larson ("The MOUTH of the Columbia" - the un-loving title given to him - which he takes as a compliment) went on the Lou Dobbs show with the Brandts, the couple who have raised Baby Gabriel for the past 20 - of his two years.

The Oregon Dept. of Human Services has decided to send this young citizen (Mother a citizen - meth head - Father illegal alien, drug dealer and served time for raping a 12 year old), to live in Mexico with the paternal grandmother - who did not know that the child even existed.

The foster parents (Brandts) had requested to adopt the boy, after the mother's parental rights were permanently terminated in August when she was declared a fugitive. The father's rights were previously terminated while he was in jail during the birth of the child. Gabriel is a "meth baby" (special needs child) and has bonded with the Brandts.

It is interesting that 3 hours before the Lou Dobbs program aired, the Oregon Governor was refusing to get involved. He must have had a change in heart (possible national pressure), because Lou announced that Ted Kulongowski (our governor) will now review the case with the Attorney General.

A couple of news articles on Baby Gabriel - you may want to read (there are more):

http://constitutionallyright.com/2007/11/08/state-of-oregon-to-deport-an-american-citizen/

http:/ /search.oregonlive.com/sp?aff=100&keywords=Gabriel+Allred&x=0&y=0

Should Baby Gabriel stay in the US and be adopted by the Brandts, or sent to his paternal grandmother in Mexico (where his US Civil Rights have no play)?

The story of little Gabriel - I can see the Australian bureaucracy doing exactly the same thing. Who makes these decisions regarding children at risk? I can't tell you how many times we hear of parents who've been reported for child abuse, to have the situation "investigated" only to have the child/ren murdered or neglected to the point of dying. Two cases here in the past couple of weeks alone. Sometimes the parents have reported themselves to the authorities saying they just can't cope and are afraid they'll do something to their children, only to have nothing done. Whose fault is it then, the parents' or the governments'?

14 th nov, is the birth day of former prime minister of India Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. It is being celebrated as children's day. His birthday has been chosen for the celebration of children because of his love and passion for children. Pandit Nehru is also regarded as the country’s special child to have been the first Prime Minister, after her long struggle for independence.
but personally I feel, we shall afford such celebrations only when we eradicate the child labor 100%, and stop the atrocities against the downtrodden street children, who are most vulnerable and being exploited in every way by the rest of 'more priviliged'population.

Ian, what this country needs is a newly designed anti-dog eat dog agenda. Never mind who John Galt is. Sounds like oz has one.

Re: Baby Gabriel - Today the Brandts were told, that he would not be removed at this time. The pressure of National Coverage and Lou Dobbs statement that he will be following up on this. A judge ruled today that DHS can not send Gabriel to Mexico, until after the Brandt's court case is heard.