Open Forum Discussions and Debate

I'm glad I'm safe Bean although I rather like the idea that I could be dangerous... spontaneous combustion is a wonderful thing, or feels like it could be now I have stuffed myself with culinary delights... and a wine or two.

Oh so now you are stuffed and sot André? Wonderful, you are also more likely to be dangerous in that state, than any other, so be happy.
Bean...You flippant? Oh Noooooo! Always glad to see you comment...you always fit where ever you go...there you are!

André, My feelings about Obama's Veep choice.... Outstanding!
He's smart, streetwise,game wise and old fashioned brainy.Does he come with problems? Sure, but he's one of the few 'politicians' who have worked and passed legislation that has been favorable to the ordinary working people and he shores up some of Obama's weaknesses.
Some folks will not vote for Obama no matter who his running mate is.
It doesn't always mean its due to his race...he just hasn't connected to many who may well be better off if they would vote for him, well enough to convince them that a vote for him would be in their best interest.
Since I don't feel that the Republican policies are in my best interest,I too hope that Obama is successful! I do hope he is the right person at the right time! I have however, been painfully aware that often 'politicians' just say what folks want or need to hear to get elected....and then do what ever it takes to retain power...but much of their ability to stay in office when they fail to do or try to make an honest effort, I blame those who keep returning them to office...no matter what. We all must do better!
Okay, I'm stepping down from my soapbox for now!

Mamacita. I truly agree with your opinion of Obama's choice of running mate. Biden has proven himself to be interested in the well being of the working man ( man as in hu-man). And a major factor in Obama's appeal to me IS his oft-stated inexperience. He's inexperienced in cronyism, corruption, and all the negatives that sour us on politicians, while being a VERY intelligent man with common sense. Let's just hope that he understands that he will be US President, NOT World President! He needs to concentrate on the well being of all US citizens first!
Now, Mama, where's that step off the soapbox???

I must admit I'm one of the lurkers and I have been following the various conversations with interest. Regarding Obama, it appears the majority of Canadians would elect him if he was running here in Canada. I don't know that much about Biden, but he seems to have a good track record and I'm sure he will bring strength to the ticket. There was no way (in my opinion) Obama could have Clinton on the ticket, and I guess for the Dem. party it all comes down now to how Hilary and bill show themselves at the upcoming convention.

Hillary has covered herself with glory so far, giving the finest speech of her career last night. It was unifying and brilliantly stated. Bill is to speak tonight, and he's expected to follow his wife's lead. He IS still sour about Hillary nor winning the nomination, but he's smart enough to avoid splitting up the party and keeping the Republicans in control.

You got it Heidi...and he did a masterful job! But how did you like Joe?....He did it well too... Kerry also sent up some good vibes ...Perhaps the Dems are finally trying to win this race, this time around....I sure hope so...my pocketbook issues can't take too much more of the same policies that Republicans espouse...The trickle down theory seems never to trickle down far enough to reach me....its usually swallowed up by someone far wealthier than I. Oh well, I think thats their whole point....There are some good folks in the Republican party, but the major policies just don't seem to favor my needs. I'm sorry about that because all too often, your vote can be taken for granted! I'd like to see more accountability from the politicians by the voters...If you fail me and the issues that I want, and I can bring a majority of like-minded folks to vote you out of office, then you will respond to my needs or face the consequences....I'd like to think we'd get better government for the masses if this were true....I dream! I wonder. I hope!

I didn't get to hear Joe. Wasn't home at the time. But I've always thought well of him, he's a good man who actually DOES want to help the everyday people in this country, not just the already wealthy.
The Dems can't just try to win, they HAVE TO win, or this country is through. McCain's staff contains a large number of big oil and wheeler-dealer lobbyists, several of whom have been indicted for corruption, so we know that it will be 4 more years of the same if he wins.

I agree Heidi..BTW...does anyone know anything about the Alaskan Governor selected as VP by John McCain? She looks interesting, but how would she look as President? Folks need to realize that the VP is only a heartbeat from the Presidency, especially when the Presidential Candidate is 72 years old...that makes her rather scary to me....as if I needed more reasons to vote for Obama...I just got them!

What a joke. McCain picks a female novice in the hopes of attracting Hillary's disgruntled backers. I have never heard of Sarah Palin before, and more power to her for reaching the level she has, but like Mamacita said, whoever she is she could end up being a President if 72 year old McCain kicks the bucket (not that I would want that to happen). The events in this US election are (in this Canadian's mind) something similar to watching a Monty Python sketch. Woe is me!

I agree CG...what can you do but laugh!!!

Thanks Mary and CG....laugh for us to help us not resort to tears....We'd better get our collective acts together and vote in the best interest of this country.....while we still have one!!!!

Amen

I'm really enjoying the topsiders input into this election circus....and a mighty entertaining one it is to from down here. Problem is even though we watch from afar the result will affect us all.
Greg...good analogy...couldn't agree more
I agree Mama..as if you needed more reasons to vote for Obama... but there you are ..you have it. Let us hope the rest of the country can see it.

I am now waiting for input from the other side of the ballot box....or are they too busy out there playing with their guns to play sudoku....

I have now learned a little about this Sarah Palin. She is ultra conservative, and is extremely opposed to a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. She believes it should be in the hands of a conservative government. Scary thing. The Republicans are gloating about them breaking the glass ceiling, but they chose a women- hating woman. They have made it even more crucial to ensure that Obama wins.

I have very little to say about this conversation, as I am not in agreement with most of what has been said. I just wanted you all to know that I do watch this page and occasionally chime in. Someone mentioned that they wanted to hear from "the other side". I will also do as Mama said and vote for the good of the country, which means her vote and mine will cancel each other out. I will agree to disagree

I personally don't see how another 4 years of a similiar administration is better for our country. We are a 2 income famiy (don't have a choice if we want to eat)and because of rising costs in EVERYTHING we can't even live paycheck to paycheck anymore it seems. But yet our kids can't get student loans or grants because we make too much money and we should be able to put them through school. So the kids are both working 2 jobs just to get through a tech college and we are doing all we can to pay tuition. We don't have extras in our lives, haven't taken a vacation for 6 years, and we are just very frustrated that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, when and who will end the suffering for the working class folks? We work our butts off to take care of our family, and look at having to work until we are in our 70's because everytime our Commander in Chief makes a decision the stock markets takes a dive and we lose more money. I would just like to be able to retire before I die and not have to eat mac & cheese for the rest of my life. Let us work and save so we can take care of ourselves in the future and not depend on the government doing it for us.

It really isn't easy for an "outsider" to comment on your country's future, but since the economy and influence on our politics in Canada is so closely tied to what happens below the 49th, we are directly affected by everything that happens in the US. The last eight years have been ridiculous, as have have poured millions and millions of dollars into border security and have armed our Customs inspectors because of US influence, we have entered into and sent our troops to be killed overseas because of US pressure, we have gone to a "big brother" type society were to cross the border for dinner and drinks (or see family members who live in the US) we are required to carry passports (so much for a North American EU) because of US pressure and we have seen our economy falter because of what has happened to the US economy. I strongly believe you need serious change down there folks, and IF you can move toward that change, it will better everyone, in your country and mine.

Amen to that Greg! Bring our soldiers home safely

The more people expect the government to do for them, the less they wil be able to do for themselves. If 50% of taxpayers pay $0 in taxes, have their children educated (even if NOT the "best education" in the world), probably get free medical care, and many of those who pay $0 in Income taxes (or also receive other goverment support (grants for schools, WIC, Food Stamps, etc, plus they use the same roads (may use subsidized public transportation), have the same general services (FDA/INS/Homeland Security/FEMA/Health & Welfare/Dept. Interior, etc. - most doing a poor job with the money they have), support armed services, State Dept., CIA, FBI, Justice, etc., etc., etc.). They may pay Social Security, possibly even Property Taxes (deductable on Fed. Income Tax) & DO pay Sales Tax (unless in Oregon where we have none) and all thoses taxes hidden in the Utility Bills and Fees. Corporations pass the taxes they pay in increase prices to the public - that is us, the user of their services. So when taxes are increased on Corporations (be it engergy taxes, fuel taxes, property, income, fees - etc.) - we the people end up paying them in the cost of every thing we purchase. If 5% of the people pay 80% of the Income Taxes - then 45% (probably you and me) pay 20%. Every time we say the government should pay for this or that - it is a right - the more taxes have to be paid & the more those who pay taxes end up paying and the more the middle class gets squeezed. The more low cost foreign labor brought into this country (legally or illegally), the more services the government has to provide & the worse it gets as a higher and higher percentage of people pay no taxes or very low taxes and are "entitled" to all these wonderful services.

The funny thing is that those who rise to the top in Capitalism would be the same people who are "more equal" than others than those in Socialism (Animal Farm). Maybe we should look at the Constitution and see what the job of government really is and what services they are to really provide, oh yes and what are our rights. We need to protect those. BTW: I do not see Health Care included as a right, nor FUTA, FUI, FICA, Education...... Read your consitution and the amendments.

Eve... our government needs to stop spending billions of dollars on illegal wars, rebuilding the damage those wars do to other countries, and allowing rampant cronyism (read Haliburton) and no-bid contracts. They have driven the national debt to astronomical proportions and borderline bankrupted this country. They have repeatedly violated the US Constitution with illegal searches and wiretapping, TORTURE, holding people prisoner without charges, committed TREASON (G.Bush Sr.'s word for the Valerie Plame affair) and demolished our standing in the world. And THAT doesn't bother you??????

The leadership of THIS country needs to concentrate on THIS country. FIRST. Bring back compassion for others (something sorely lacking in your statement), trust and some sense of unity in this country. We are all Americans. We are NOT two warring ethnic tribes comprised of Democrats and Republicans!

Unfortunately, with the addition of Ms. Palin to the Republican ballot, the deciding factor of this election will be the woman's right to choose. John McCain has made it quite clear that he will nominate Judges to the Supreme Court that will side with those wishing to overturn Roe Vs. Wade. IE: the woman's right to choose. And, because of this, I don't think McCain will get even one of Hillary supporters.

The one thing I have to agree with Eve on is that there is too much free help to those who do not deserve it. I do not agree with Free Health Care for everyone and I believe Obama's plan is set up for everyone to pay something. It still places a burden on those of us in the middle class.

There is no perfect solution, that is also a quick fix to a really broken system. We need to find the answer that is best for the entire country. Obama has better, and more compassionate answers than McCain's 4 more years of ignorance.

How would men like it if their right to do with their own bodies as they deem best, was taken away. If their physical and reproductive health was controlled by religious extremists who believed that they are second class citizens? That is why our right to chose, our right to make our own decisions about our welfare, is so important. I have yet to meet, or even hear of, a woman who WANTS to have an abortion. It is traumatic decision to make, and is only done out of desperation, when no other option will work. At least that woman deserves compassionate, well informed, and good quality health care.

Angie...thank you for responding to my comment re a point of view from the 'other side'. That is not an easy thing to do when you are not in agreement with most of what has already been said. It is OK to disagree....as long as no one takes it personally.

Do you think that opposing points of view in the voters results in some degree of temperance in community? Or does it more likely precede intolerance of another's point of view....must admit I often take the easy way out - some topics are taboo i.e. politics.

If Roe vs. Wade was overturned (which I doubt it will be), it would not "outlaw" abortion - as many claim. What it would do is put it back in the State laws. Each state currently has laws on this subject (pre Roe vs. Wade). A State could keep their existing law, or change it as the citizenry of that State decided.

Many Christians believe in abortion under certain circumstances and believe in the death penalty. Then there are some Christians who oppose both, vehemently under any circumstances - and are probably in the minority.

Heidi - Christians do not believe that a woman is a second class citizen. So who are the "Religious Extremists" that you are referring to and fear are going to control women's productive rights? Do you believe that all, 80%, 50%, 20%, 5% of Christians are "Religious Extremists"? Even if it was 40% of Christians (which I believe would be high), & Christians were 80% of the citizenry - they would not be able to control anything. If 80% of Christians opposed abortion except for certain situations (life of the mother, r ape, in cest, etc....) laws could possibly be written by States to reflect this - if this was the moral fabric of the citizenry of a State as a whole. The same goes for CHANGES to Roe vs. Wade (like what happened with "partial birth abortion").

The extremists are those that would support a woman going through 8-9 months of pregnancy then have a child brutally killed in the birth canal to prevent a live birth.

BTW - I personally believe no woman should be forced to carry a child of a r ape or in cest and that the rap ist and/or the offending member of the family should be tried in a court of law with stiff sentencing. However, a woman who "cries r ape" a month later (date r ape) because she is pregnant, I may have a different view - that the "rap ist" should be responsible for the financial support of the child to maturity. Maybe then men will think with brains a little higher than their belt buckle.

I also, would not challenge a woman's right in the first 6 months to abort a child that would have severe deformities or maladies. I have seen what my parents endured with my sister and the pain she endured in her 3 years of life. Even hard core Christians have difficulty in this choice.

Oh yes, it is amazing what surgeries can be performed on a child today to remedy deformities and other maladies before birth. My sister was the 4th case in the US of her form of cancer and was tested and polked and researched so others could live. While she had some good times in her life, she suffered the pain of her cancer. She was an "Angel" sent by God - my Mom gave me Dale Evan's book "Angel Unaware" to deal with the questions I had as a child. [Sounds like a philosophy that Sarah Palen has for her Downs child.]

I had difficulty posting the above because of a couple of words (one for sure) so a space was used in the second post between letters of the words to get it to post. Had to wait some time between posts before it was accepted. So when you see "r ape", "in cest" or "rap ist" delete the blank and figure out the word for yourself that was intended - that were forbidden words.

I don't know how many times I've had to tell "people" that there is NO SUCH THING as this" partial birth abortion" that anti-choice people claim exists, just to scare people. NO health care professional could ever live with themselves if they tortured a viable (survivable outside the womb) fetus to death. It is a scare tactic used to get ignorant people to side with the ones spreading the lie.

Bean, you're welcome for my input, however small it was. If you saw my comment here and then my comments on the easy page yesterday about bowing out..... I also take the "easy way out". Which is exactly what I am about to do here. If anyone wants to have an intelligent debate or wants to know my views and the reasons for them, PM me.

well i am not in love with any of the canidates. being from utah i'm sure it is no suprise that i am a republican. i am a bit scared of big government. it seems that special programs never die even if the need has. as for the abortion issue. even the good folks here in utah understand special circumstances and the need to terminate a pregnancy. however, i knew a few girls in my 20's that abused the abortion clinics. others had an abortion without ever being offered counseling. this is such a strange issue. very few people are extremists, and the rest of us seem to agree on the concepts, but not on the way to put them into effect. as for the canidates, i will be true italian and sit on the fence for awhile.

I'm stepping out of the arena as well. You can't change minds that are already made up.

NO HITTING!!

I have just returned from a Jazz Festival where I heard much good music made from varied instrumental voices, by a very diverse group of talented musicians....I returned to this page to see if the conversation on politics had advanced. To my great pleasure, I have found many varied points of view expressed in a fairly civil manner, that will lead to people making their vote speak for them in November. I am so proud to hear folks state their opinions with pride, and with confidence that each of our opinions have value. Good to be able to agree or disagree without being disagreeable...So may good fortune follow a good turnout at the polls in November. May the next president, whoever he is, use his power wisely to benefit our nation and the world that we share with others in the fairest, most equitable manner possible. May we once again be a nation that leads in a responsible, peaceful, economically progressive manner. While Obama is my choice, as an American, who ever wins will be 'My President"! I, and every other American, wants to be able to take pride in his accomplishments, while feeling secure in his leadership...therefore, vote your choice but vote, and may God watch over all! Peace.

We need more true Americans like you, Mamacita. You're a good woman.

Wow Heidi...you sure killed this with your last couple of comments... of course it is because we all agree with you. I think the whole world could do with a few more people with Mama's wisdom

On 24 August 2008 I asked in this forum for peoples opinion about Obama’s choice of running mate. Today I came here and found people expressing passionately and frankly their thoughts and feelings on the issues associated with the upcoming US Presidential election. From an Aussies point of view I am finding it very interesting reading, particularly the abortion debate given that our State government has a Bill currently in Parliament to decriminalise abortion.
I note that Palin is against abortion in all cases except immediate threat to the mother, favours teaching creationism in the science classroom alongside evolution, wants to teach abstinence-only sex education, and upon her announcement as running mate to McCain declared she did not believe that climate change is man made. This seems to be (as I have read) in direct opposition to the fact that as Governor of Alaska she created a sub-cabinet advisory board on how to deal with climate change and reduce gas emissions. Already there seems to be what Americans derisively call a “flip-flop”. Hmmm alarm bells are ringing!!!!

Agree with your words in totality Jaz. I have concerns.